I have been a physician for -- a lot of years -- and agree with this. In fact, though, I have rarely thought about pre-med courses in the last several decades, and would apply the same logic to some med school courses, like biochemistry. Of course, the motivation for your post was the NYU/Smith firing, and your analysis of that seems to me correct, and so that is a pre-med, not a med school course. Of course, med school is full of people who were biochemistry majors in college; one of the problems with the physician pipeline. More English majors!
One of your earlier commenters (Colin M.) coincidentally makes the connection. There is in fact little application of biochem in the practice of medicine outside of, perhaps, endocrinology.
I stopped at orgo (which I did well at, surprisingly) en route to a chemical engineering degree. But is Biochemistry a better prerequisite for med school? And is Orgo a prerequisite for BioCh? Maybe you make Orgo easier but BioCh harder, as it has more practical relevance to internal medicine, at least?
Spot on!!! It's very similar to forcing students taking statistics to learn the calculus to produce the results rather than teaching students how to use the software properly, effectively, accurately, while letting the software do the math, without, I might add, a moment's complaint.
Biochemistry professor here, who's doing research in biomedicine & teaching MD / PhD / undergrads in the field for awhile. Also dad of a daughter in post-graduate school in health field now too. A couple of thoughts:
* NYT piece and issues it raised left me with a wide range of thoughts & emotions, similar to yours. Would really like to know more behind the scenes about all of this, but genuinely hope that NYU admin is not solely/primarily responding to student feedback w/o broader input.
* I have strong issues with the general idea of weedout courses – it's a shame to see many of the commenters here opted to steer around medicine thanks to the reputation of organic chemistry. That said, I also think there are substantial issues w/the preparations many of our students have received in the sciences & critical skills more broadly = these often get revealed in years 1 & 2 of undergrad.
* While I don't teach orgo, students in my lab & classes need to understand some core principles to understand biochemistry & pharmacology, both of which are central to medicine & surrounding fields. Would love to see orgo taught w/different emphasis and organization accordingly to help prep pre-health students for that path, while also laying a foundation for those who want to continue into basic science and other paths.
I'd put up my memories of the substance of orgo versus yours anytime, and I remember nothing!
To say it is irrelevant to the making of quality physicians is an understatement, other than learning to labor and retain unnecessary minutiae. In medicine, by contrast, the notice of a seemingly minor matter may occasionally/rarely have important meaning.
Medicine needs both its Kirks and Spocks - ideally the majority of its practitioners possess ingredients of both.
As a former Times staffer with all the conflicted feelings such status infects all former Times staffers, I thoroughly enjoyed this. But I must take exception to the diss of English. Wait, what? The Crying of Lot 49 is the carrot used to lure innocents into the briar patch of Pynchon and Gaddis, not to mention Melville. I challenge anyone lacking a brilliant living skeleton key (George Levine alav hashalom) to make sense of JR or Gravity’s Rainbow or Moby-Dick, for that matter. And they’re all as useless as Orgo, absent the brag factor of a passing exam score. W.A.S.T.E. indeed!
I have been a physician for -- a lot of years -- and agree with this. In fact, though, I have rarely thought about pre-med courses in the last several decades, and would apply the same logic to some med school courses, like biochemistry. Of course, the motivation for your post was the NYU/Smith firing, and your analysis of that seems to me correct, and so that is a pre-med, not a med school course. Of course, med school is full of people who were biochemistry majors in college; one of the problems with the physician pipeline. More English majors!
One of your earlier commenters (Colin M.) coincidentally makes the connection. There is in fact little application of biochem in the practice of medicine outside of, perhaps, endocrinology.
That’s why I became a massage therapist! Less time, cheaper and no Orgo. 😅#3CheersForEmpaths
I stopped at orgo (which I did well at, surprisingly) en route to a chemical engineering degree. But is Biochemistry a better prerequisite for med school? And is Orgo a prerequisite for BioCh? Maybe you make Orgo easier but BioCh harder, as it has more practical relevance to internal medicine, at least?
Spot on!!! It's very similar to forcing students taking statistics to learn the calculus to produce the results rather than teaching students how to use the software properly, effectively, accurately, while letting the software do the math, without, I might add, a moment's complaint.
Biochemistry professor here, who's doing research in biomedicine & teaching MD / PhD / undergrads in the field for awhile. Also dad of a daughter in post-graduate school in health field now too. A couple of thoughts:
* NYT piece and issues it raised left me with a wide range of thoughts & emotions, similar to yours. Would really like to know more behind the scenes about all of this, but genuinely hope that NYU admin is not solely/primarily responding to student feedback w/o broader input.
* I have strong issues with the general idea of weedout courses – it's a shame to see many of the commenters here opted to steer around medicine thanks to the reputation of organic chemistry. That said, I also think there are substantial issues w/the preparations many of our students have received in the sciences & critical skills more broadly = these often get revealed in years 1 & 2 of undergrad.
* While I don't teach orgo, students in my lab & classes need to understand some core principles to understand biochemistry & pharmacology, both of which are central to medicine & surrounding fields. Would love to see orgo taught w/different emphasis and organization accordingly to help prep pre-health students for that path, while also laying a foundation for those who want to continue into basic science and other paths.
Fantastic! Orgo was what made me reconsider a career as a physician (I'm not). Cell biology didn't help either. But I LOVED trig!
I'd put up my memories of the substance of orgo versus yours anytime, and I remember nothing!
To say it is irrelevant to the making of quality physicians is an understatement, other than learning to labor and retain unnecessary minutiae. In medicine, by contrast, the notice of a seemingly minor matter may occasionally/rarely have important meaning.
Medicine needs both its Kirks and Spocks - ideally the majority of its practitioners possess ingredients of both.
As a former Times staffer with all the conflicted feelings such status infects all former Times staffers, I thoroughly enjoyed this. But I must take exception to the diss of English. Wait, what? The Crying of Lot 49 is the carrot used to lure innocents into the briar patch of Pynchon and Gaddis, not to mention Melville. I challenge anyone lacking a brilliant living skeleton key (George Levine alav hashalom) to make sense of JR or Gravity’s Rainbow or Moby-Dick, for that matter. And they’re all as useless as Orgo, absent the brag factor of a passing exam score. W.A.S.T.E. indeed!
If orgo had not been a requirement, I might have become a doctor. I agree with you. Get rid of it and fill the profession with more empaths like you.